safc2 another noob question

[rc423423r]

hey its me with whos building the m90 supercharged 96 sl2, just finished hooking up the safc2 today acording to the settings from turbosaturns.net that is on here somewhere. just need some help as i am new to tuning, when i dont have the safc2 plugged in the car starts fine, when i have the safc2 plugged in it takes 2 or more cranks to get the car started, then when it starts if i try to rev the engine it will die immediately. all my fuel corrections are on %0 and im just trying to get the car to cooperate with having the safc2 plugged in. any ideas?

[SC2Sick]

What it likely means is that you didn't cut the MAP wire in half.

[S.Bretz]

SOunds like you dropped a turd in the punch bowl.

double and tripple check the wiring. Either the settings are way off, or you have the map sensor wiring is really fubard, or the ground wires are all fucked.

[rc423423r]

i think your right i didn't cut  the map wire in half. can  u elaborate on it though im not exactly sure what you mean

[rc423423r]

i lied i got it thanks u guys are the shit!

[rc423423r]

okay so i while im still waiting on my wbo2 controller to come in the mail i decided to see if the safc is even doing anything...so i hooked up my scanner to monitor o2 volts and i can literally turn +-50% and the voltage doesent move at all, also would this have anything to do with the sensor in out settings which i currently have on 6 in 6 out because at 4 in 4 out the prs on the monitor on safc wasnt moving now it will go from -760 to -758 but no more...is it supposed to read more than that o what...any help/advice would be appreciated

[redhotFTW!]

safc corrects on throttle.  play with it all you want, you wont tune your idle.  your soon going to find out why this is a horrible way to tune.  no part throttle fuel control, idle control or spark.  your basically are only going to be able to correct ~80% + throttle

[rc423423r]

okay i guess ive come to terms with the fact that its only for wot, but ive set the low throttle point to 0% so that it would attempt to correct at idle but ill prolly just wait for my wbo2 to get here before i keep messing with it....i was also wondering if by running the car in a permanent open loop i could have better control over part throttle with the safc by cancelling out fuel trims by the stock ecu (ps this is all for a s/c setup thats going on once i learn to tune) i just wonder about if its safe or not...someone with more knowledge please chime in

[arthursc2]

Its not very safe to use just an SAFC, its better than none, but basically, its still stock fuel trims

I think you will have a hard time fooling the car into staying in open loop all the time

Unless you are in open loop (cold coolant temp) the SAFC will not do anything at idle. But to fool the car into staying in open loop, its going to run like shit because you will have to adjust the signal from the ECTS to the PCM. Unplugging the o2 wont do too much from experience. The car will just idle a lil rougher than normal and will learn to keep it running based off the MAP and ECTS signals.

So, in short, you dont have much control. You would be better off with larger injectors and high fuel pressure, and hoping to not wash out the rings.

[rc423423r]

Its not very safe to use just an SAFC, its better than none, but basically, its still stock fuel trims

I think you will have a hard time fooling the car into staying in open loop all the time

Unless you are in open loop (cold coolant temp) the SAFC will not do anything at idle. But to fool the car into staying in open loop, its going to run like shit because you will have to adjust the signal from the ECTS to the PCM. Unplugging the o2 wont do too much from experience. The car will just idle a lil rougher than normal and will learn to keep it running based off the MAP and ECTS signals.

So, in short, you dont have much control. You would be better off with larger injectors and high fuel pressure, and hoping to not wash out the rings.

thats what i was thinking, i saw that u could unplug the 02s but that wouldn't work properly, i have 36 lb injectors at 10 psi max so i think wot will  be safely rich but i was also concerned with driveability, guess ill just have to wait and see what happens

[arthursc2]

avoid part throttle boost if possible.

Actually, avoid it like the plague. There wont be enough available to prevent detonation and lean conditions

[rc423423r]

avoid part throttle boost if possible.

Actually, avoid it like the plague. There wont be enough available to prevent detonation and lean conditions

yea .... that reminds me lol...i was thinking of putting a waste gate on the s/c that i could adjust to bring the boost like down to less than 3 psi for when im on the highway because i will prolly put some miles on coming home on the weekends from school....i was just thinking if i did this i could keep afr's rich enough while at part throttle crusing at like 70 mph, with 36 lb injectors... idk yet i have to see at what rpm boost kicks in once i get the s/c on i did my calculations a while back but lost them...

[BC. Livewire]

as soon as you have a WBo2 and boost in the car runing you will see how pointluss a S-afc truly is

face it you need a MS or some thing better

[rc423423r]

as soon as you have a WBo2 and boost in the car runing you will see how pointluss a S-afc truly is

face it you need a MS or some thing better

im almost there lol

[rc423423r]

Unless you are in open loop (cold coolant temp) the SAFC will not do anything at idle. But to fool the car into staying in open loop, its going to run like shit because you will have to adjust the signal from the ECTS to the PCM. Unplugging the o2 wont do too much from experience. The car will just idle a lil rougher than normal and will learn to keep it running based off the MAP and ECTS signals.

i think i will try to add a resistor to the ECTS to simulate cold temps to force open loop before i look into another tuning options
or has anybody tried to modify the Throttle position sensor to force open loop? i kno the safc isnt the best way to tune but i think if i can get the car to be in open loop all the time without too much fight it will be sufficient

[redhotFTW!]

How do u suggest he avoids part throttle boost on a roots style blower arthur?

If ýou need this car for long distance or its your only car, do not attempt this.  Getting it in open loop is not going to help either.

[arthursc2]

How do u suggest he avoids part throttle boost on a roots style blower arthur?

If ýou need this car for long distance or its your only car, do not attempt this.  Getting it in open loop is not going to help either.

Corey, there is some debate on the open loop thing. With an SAFC, that only tunes in open loop, you have fuel adjustment all across the RPM range if the car is in open loop. Dustin and I verified that. But fooling the PCM is impossible without the car running like general shit anyway. We just unplugged the ECTS that feeds the PCM signal (1st Gen car). Car ran like shit, but I could make it pig rich or pinging lean at idle, 1200rpm 3200rpm 0% throttle, etc.

And also, Dustin's IRL has a positive displacement/ Roots blower. Eaton M62. He can pull that bad boy to damn near redline while keeping the blower freewheeling. When using the bypass valve, its completely possible to keep the car building vacuum and keep the blower from making boost. At least with the M62 in the IRL's it is possible.

[redhotFTW!]

Exactly.  When you fool the car into staying into open loop it starts using other sensors to stay running.  It becomes sparatic, runs but like shit and without constantness.  It knows its not supposed to be in open loop and it won't take the safcs corrections since technically the pcm does not know the safc is there.

I suppose the op could run an electrically controlled bypass and only disengage it when going wot....

[arthursc2]

Exactly.  When you fool the car into staying into open loop it starts using other sensors to stay running.  It becomes sparatic, runs but like shit and without constantness.  It knows its not supposed to be in open loop and it won't take the safcs corrections since technically the pcm does not know the safc is there.

I suppose the op could run an electrically controlled bypass and only disengage it when going wot....

That would be up to him. But using small throttle percentages, and keeping the motor pulling vacuum, Dustin can drive his car all day with no boost ever being made. Not that he wants to or likes to because its really fucking slow, but he can avoid boost all day.

And forcing the car to be in open loop will give you control (ish) over the fuel, but its not going to be any more drivable or civil than if it was in closed loop with WOT correction.

[redhotFTW!]

I guess I do not understand people that try this stuff.  I would not want to drive around a car all day that I had to watch gauges constantly in order for it to now blow.  Its distracting, annoying and dangerous to be doing all the time.  Especially when a used ms is as much or cheaper then a safc and once its tuned your good to go.  Occasional checks to the wideband of course.  I would just rather have a stock car then one that you had to stare at 3 different things ever time you accelorate from a srop sign or into traffic

[arthursc2]

Whats worse is some ppl I have seen boost their car dont even have proper engine monitoring capabilities.

I am not blaming the OP of anything, but at the very least, have a WBO2, oil pressure, boost and oil temp. In my opinion.

You can buy as many gauges as you want, but it helps to know that info. As well as coolant temp, but then you are stuffing gauges in random places and shit.

Boosting on an SAFC can be done, but its alot of work to keep an eye on everything and you should just get a stand alone.

Corey, for once, has some excellent points. lol

[rc423423r]

Boosting on an SAFC can be done, but its alot of work to keep an eye on everything and you should just get a stand alone.

Corey, for once, has some excellent points. lol

i think that settles it then lol

[rc423423r]

so i got my wbo2 in yesterday its the slc pure plus form 14point7.com, after i installed it i tried to see if i could get the car into open loop so i could use the safc, even when i mashed the throttle to the floor the car would not go open loop, and my afr's were 11-12 at wot, my idle is 11.5, and cruising is high 14's, idk why i cant go open loop even at WOT, it could be my sohc ecu running a dohc motor idk, (im looking for a new one for a 96 mt if anybody has one btw), i even unplugged both o2's and ects trying to get it in open loop, idk what to do i may just have to go with the overwhelming megasquirt, or just ditch all this shit and stay n/a which is pretty tempting considering nothing is working quite rite, idk what to do

[arthursc2]

11-12 at WOT is open loop.... What indication are you looking for that you are actually in open loop?

And get the proper PCM before doing much else, k? It will eliminate any and all issues of the SOHC PCM trying to get a DOHC to run properly. Plus, the timing tables are different IIRC.

[rc423423r]

What makes me think I'm not in open loop is that Ill pull 50% fuel and the ratios don't even change either I effed up wiring which I doubt b/c I've checked it multiple times but we all make mistakes or it's my PCM b/c my fuel trims are at LTFT -20 and STFT -50, I'll think I'll reserve my judgement until I get the proper PCM...on a more positive note the simulated nb output on the slc pure plus is supposedley programmable so u can make the PCM believe there's less fuel  making it rich at part throttle..if I can get it to work right this may possibly be a solution to part throttle boost